Interview: Kim Carnes on her creative process

That rock and roll icon with the smoky voice. Kim Carnes not only has an amazingly distinctive voice, she is an incredible songwriter

Kim joins your weekend to talk about the hits, to how it took three days to turn Bette Davis Eyes into the hit that it was. And she also distills her creativity that just might inspire you on your creative journey.

She has one of the most distinctive voices in rock and roll, and it's a huge treat to have her on the show. Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter Kim Carnes is here. From 'Bette Davis Eyes', to We Are the World' to 'Don't Fall in Love with a Dreamer, Kim has made a beautifully distinctive mark in the music world. You can catch her with Little River Band this weekend at Ralston Arena, but first, hang out right here and catch up with Kim.



Kim: Thank you so much, singing sisters. I love it. How lucky you guys are!

Interviewers: Well, we're lucky to have you on the show as well!

Well, thank you.

We just talked with Wayne from Little River Band last weekend, and he said that you guys have been wanting to do a concert together for a while. First talk about how this finally came together, and this will be your first performance together in Omaha, and then what people are in store for at the concert.

They do a Christmas show every year down in Delray Beach, Florida, and I flew down and did that show with them. Afterwards, we said, "well this was cool, this was fun. We need to do more."

It was one of those things that just really clicked.

Yes, it did. And I've known Wayne for a long time, we used to do a benefit Christmas show every year out in San Diego. We go way back. Finally, we put it together and we're meeting up in Nebraska. I can't wait!

You come out in the middle of the show?

Yeah, about the middle, somewhere like that. Maybe a little before.

And they are your backing band.

They are, and we rehearsed the other day and they're awesome. I've got a band I've had for years in Nashville, but Little River Band are great, so I'm looking forward to it. It will be super fun.

Do they sing harmony too, behind you?

Yeah.

That's got to be a cool sound!

And also, my husband Dave Ellingson, who – we've written together for years – he also goes on the road with me and does percussion and background vocals. I'll have a whole bunch of singers.

You were signed as a songwriter early in your career, Jimmy Bowen actually signed you. At the time, your fellow songwriters were Don Henley, Glenn Fry and J. D. Souther. So talk a little bit about what that time was like.

It was really amazing. My first publishing deal, their first publishing deal, all of them, it was just pre-Eagles, and we all wrote together and shared demo time in the studio. We'd end up at this little Italian joint at night called Martoni's, and drink some wine and just talk about what we wanted in the future. It was such a great time because there was no jealousy or anything like that. We all were pulling for each other to be successful. One night, Dave and I were in line at the Troubadour in L.A. to see Van Morrison, and Glenn walked up, we said, "Where have you been? We haven't seen you for a while." He said, "Oh, man, We've started this group, it's gonna be huge, it's so good. I can't wait for you to hear it." We said, "What are you gonna call it?" He said, "The Eagles". Really, soon after that, their first single hit. The rest is history, big time.

I read that when you recorded 'Bette Davis Eyes', you and your husband, and another musician, you worked on it for three days. It wasn't in that form until you put this work into it. What made you take it in that direction?

I knew I loved the lyrics, but I didn't like the original feel of the song. It was really different, and to me it needed to be dark. So my band and I rehearsed. In the studio, I like to cut live, vocal at the same time with the band. We rehearsed, and on day three, my keyboard player, Bill Cuomo, came up with the signature lick on the synthesizer.

Did you know it when you heard it?

Oh, totally. Like, "That's it!" Everybody fell into place and knew what to do. The next day, we cut it live. The record is second take.

There's no overdubs?

Yes. And the mix was a rough mix – we were taking a break over Christmas, and then gonna come back and cut the rest of the album. I said," You know, I can't go home without copies of what we've done." Niko Bolas, the second engineer, ran off a copy, for me, of everything. That ended up being the mix that was the record, because we could never top that record, we could never beat it.

If you hadn't asked for that, you wouldn't have had it, right?

Right! We still would have mixed it and I wouldn't have known I was trying to beat the mix that we didn't have! But it worked out perfectly.

That's a cool twist of fate.

Yeah, there's a spontaneity when you just mix on the spot and you're not all programmed and thinking about things...

You're in the moment.

Yes, it's like singing. There's only one time when you know that's the performance, and any time you sing it after that – I'm talking about in the studio – it's just gonna be a recreation of that one magical one. It's that way with a mix also, it's like, "Okay, that's the performance."

You have such a unique voice and a unique sound. As as songwriter, the melodies and things, knowing what you're capable of with your voice, did that influence how you wrote your songs?

Well, I write most everything on keyboard. For the most part, with rare exceptions, I just write what feels good to sing. I've been fortunate that a lot of other people have cut my songs based on my demos. Dave and I wrote an album for Kenny Rogers called Gideon, and he came to us and asked if we would write him an album, a concept album. He wanted to be a modern day cowboy. We came home, we gave him a name and we wrote a whole life story that we made up. After that, we wrote the songs. The first hit was a duet from that called "Don't Fall in Love with a Dreamer". I'll sing it at the show the way I usually do it live, because I wrote it at the piano, just me and the piano, not as a duet. I like doing it both ways, but I think it's closer to my heart to do it the way I originally wrote it.



With Kenny Rogers, what was that artistic connection like?

Well, he'd already recorded three or four of my songs. One of the first songs, as a writer, I ever had cut was when he was with The First Edition. We knew each other, and Bowen was the First Edition's producer. Any time he was cutting an album he'd ask me to send them songs. He recorded a bunch of them, so then when he came and asked us to write a whole album, that was extraordinary, to say the least. We didn't know we had to make a demo of the whole album. I got my band together. A wonderful singer, a friend of ours', Kin Vassy, and we produced an album that we played for Kenny. When we got to 'Dreamer', he said, "If I did this album, would you do this as a duet with me?"

He probably knew that your voice had to be on that.

Well, it worked out great.

What a compliment for an artist to trust another artist so completely with a project like that.

... to write the whole thing. Listen, I think about that, it's such a high point, because most people never get to do that as writers. It's rare, and I still - you know, when we talk about it, so privileged. Once we got into the character, giving him a name, Gideon Tanner, and his whole story, he became real to us. It was challenging, and once we got into the project, it was so much fun and so creative. A high point.

Those creative moments are no longer there to have without the concept album and the story.

Yeah, not too often. Especially here in Nashville, groups of people who still like to record live, and they want to go for the special moments, it's not all cut and paste. More and more of my friends are going back to the analogue synths and instruments just because of that warm, wonderful sound. It's like everything, it comes back around, but not a hundred percent, for sure.

You have to share a little bit about the 'We Are the World' session.

Oh, another incredible memory. Beyond magical night. We recorded it at A&M studios. I had been on the label, A&M, for two or three albums, and loved that label. Quincy Jones, the producer, put a big sign that said "Leave your egos at the door". Truly, everybody did.

That was my next question, did everyone follow that?

Yeah! Everybody was so happy to be part of it and be there, and so cool. We recorded until the sun came up. It was one of those nights where it had to be finished.

Do you wish social media was around then?

Oh gosh. I guess, no. I know what it does, but I'm so not a fan of social media, so I have to answer the question that way. It let it just be organic, it was made, it was mixed, the record came out, and people bought it. It was played on the radio, it was organic.

Your line was with Cyndi Lauper. What was the line?

"When we come together as one".

After that project, did you feel a special bond with the people in that room?

Yeah, I mean... some of them I never saw again. A bunch of them, yes, I did, and worked with and stayed close to. It all mixed up. I had never met Bob Dylan before, so that was a super treat for me. So special to be part of that, a memory that's etched in your brain forever.

You ended up in Nashville, as did Jimmy Bowen. How did that come about?

My publisher was here, so I was coming back and forth from L.A. to write all the time with different people. I finally got tired - I had two boys in school, and I didn't like leaving all the time. Also, when I would come to Nashville, I would just write like crazy, it was so creative, much like the early publishing days that you were mentioning with Glenn and Don Henley. It was much like late 70s in L.A. and early 80s. That kind of dissipated, so I would come back here and that same close-knit music community, and songwriting community, was, and still is, so close here. I loved that. So I said we would move here for two years, three at the most, and that was like twenty years ago.

It was meant to be, right?

Yeah, I forgot that - I was gonna make tons of friends. I still go back to L.A. a lot, because I'm born and raised there, so kinda split time, but definitely spent more time here in Nashville.

You've been married to the same guy for a long time. How have you made your marriage work in this crazy business?

I think one thing that helps is that we both are in the music business and I don't have to explain to him what it is I do and why I have to do it. He knows, because he does it too. I see where that could be a problem, especially going on the road a lot. Going to Europe every year and performing. It just works out better doing it together, going to the same place.

Sharing the same life.

Yeah.

It helps that you're both talented too.

We, again, feel so fortunate because I love what I do, and I can't imagine... I wouldn't be doing anything else. To get to do that is such a privilege. Not only are they great talented people I write with and do shows with, but they're all really good friends. That is incredible too.

You seem to really like that sense of artistic community.

It really is, even with Nashville, huge growth right now. The songwriting community, the music community, is still close. Everybody's there for everybody else. Pretty cool.

One of the aims of this show is to show how important having a creative life is. Maybe you do something completely different in your real life, but we want to encourage our listeners to do something creative and to keep that flow going. How have you managed to keep up your creativity, especially when life gets in the way?

I guess because I've always done it. It's such a natural thing for me to go over to the piano and sit down, and write a song. Getting together with good friends, doing it, of course, shows, I've never done anything else once I got out of school. But all through junior high and high school, I sang at school events and different things, and I always knew I was gonna be a singer and a songwriter. Nobody in our family was doing that, so they didn't pay much attention. But then they had to start taking it seriously because I really meant it!

When you were raising your boys, was there a time when it was hard to find time to create?

No, not really. They always went on the road with me, with a few exceptions, but the big tours, I'd always make sure to put them in the summer so they could go. And European ones. If we went to a great place, we would stay over and make it a vacation afterwards. They knew that's what I did, it just worked out. I've always thought, once in a while, people would say I can't do this, and have kids, I can't do both, its impossible. I don't think so, I think if you, in your mind, know that you want to do the best job possible raising your kids, and you love them more than anything in the world, they're your priority. But also, there's this thing I do writing songs and singing, and doing shows, that's really important, it just works out. In my life, it did. I never thought it would be a problem. I just went, "Well, hey, we'll just figure out how it works." I think that's it, at least for me.

What's your viewpoint, I know especially in Nashville, there's a predominance of, I guess in country music, men on the charts. Women kind of have a hard time getting airplay on country radio. What are your thoughts on your experience being a very successful woman in music? Share with us your heart on that.

It was definitely more difficult to be taken seriously. I ended up producing a song that I wrote as a duet for me and Barbra Streisand. That was a miracle that it happened, that people let it work, because if you notice, not only are there fewer females on the charts, but as producers. I have tons of friends that should be really successful music producers. It's just harder. The charts right now, it's insane how few females... and I made up my mind early on, I wanted to be on A&M Records. That was the singer-songwriter label. It had such great credibility, and I loved the artists there. I was told by the wonderful head of the label and head of A&R, "We'd love to sign you, but we already have our female." There were tons of male artists. I didn't give up, because that's the label that I wanted to be on. Finally, the head of the label said, "Okay, you've finally worn me down. We'll sign you. We'll do it."

How did you wear them down?

Because I wouldn't give up. I kept bringing them my demos and playing my songs. After about a year or more, they finally said "Okay." I hired a biplane, you could tell them what to write on the banner. What did I write on it? I had it fly over A&M Studios, like, "Kim Carnes Loves A&M", right after they signed me. I was told – I wasn't there – that the head of the label looked at it and said, "Oh no, another female artist!" It all worked out great, and we worked great together, but that's the answer to your question. Even as they were signing me, they still were like, "What are we doing?"

I've had way more battles to fight, I think, because of being a female artist. I don't think it, I know it. You have to work at proving yourself much harder.

I would think as a female producer, that is a predominantly male field. How did you get taken seriously in the studio from a production standpoint?

Well, I've always, whether it was on the credit or not, had a co-producing hand in every single one of my records. I always had a vision of what I wanted to do, so I basically just worked alongside the producer. It was my band, and I wouldn't settle for something that I didn't feel was right. I always had a big say. The Streisand duet came about because her manager called me out of the blue and said "Could you write something that you and Barbra could do as a duet?" I said, "I'm really flattered, thank you, but I don't know because our voices are so different. Our styles are so different. I can't even imagine what it would be. Let me think about this." Truly, about a half hour later, I went to the piano, my hands touched down and I didn't get up until the song was written. It was about an hour later. I knew at that time this will work, I could hear both our voices. That particular song, 'Make No Mistake, He's Mine', we cut together. And then, Kenny, again, called and said "I want do do a duet with Ronnie Milsap, do you have anything?" I said, "If you could really use your imagination, I'm gonna send you 'Make No Mistake, He's Mine', but just picture you guys singing it 'Make No Mistake, She's Mine'." It ended up being a number one country record for them. It earned him a Grammy for Best Vocal Duo. Then, a couple of years ago, two people on Glee cut the song. Where that went from that first phone call was just insane.


Do you like what Rachel and I call "assignment writing", when someone says "can you write this type of song?" Do you like that better?

No. I like what I feel like writing, what comes out because I feel it. Except the Gideon album, that was a lbour of love. I loved doing that, but for the most part, no, I don't write with a specific person or anassignment. Sometimes I've written themes for films, and after seeing the film or the rough cut, and I'm inspired to write something. That's fun. But again, for the most part, no, I like whatever hits me.

Do you have a song that you just love singing live?

Yeah, actually I'm gonna open with a song called 'If I Was An Angel' that I wrote with an incredible songwriter who's in the hall here. My best friend, Matraca Berg. She cut it on one of her albums, and it's on my last album, Chasin' Wild Trains, which – I'm gonna bring copies there – is my favourite album. It's the only one I can still listen to!

Funny how that works!

I love doing that. I do one on the keyboards called 'Still Warmed By the Thrill'. I just close my eyes and love singing and playing that. I'm doing, I think, seven songs, so I have to like the ones that I'm doing, if I'm gonna pare it down.

Kim, this has been an awesome interview. We've loved chatting with you, and thank you for sharing your heart, and letting us into the inside of your life. We really appreciate it.

Oh, well I really appreciate it too. I'm so glad it worked out.

When your next project, whatever you're gonna do next... holler back at us and we'll chat again.

Oh, that would be awesome. Thank you.

Kim performing with Little River Band at the Ralston Arena, Nebraska, on May 5, 2018.
Photo by Homer's Travels (homerstravels.com)